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The Great Big Immigration Rally

May 2, 2006

kr’s note: Admittedly, I’m no expert on this issue in terms of being familiar with the specifics of this proposed immigration reform, so most of what I’ve written here is personal opinion and conjecture. In fact, this is nothing more than a transcription of my meandering thoughts about this topic, and I am more than open to criticism and feedback from my readers. In fact, the reason I’m jotting this down in post form is to open up some healthy discussion on this topic.

Yesterday in Chicago, nearly 400,000 (or 700,000 depending on which paper one reads) people marched through downtown to protest the proposed immigration reform laws. People came from all over the place, many of them taking off work or school, and it was very well-organized and peaceful, with no arrests or civil disturbances. In short, it was a proper demonstration and flexing of civil and political muscle, a lesson that American Muslims ought to learn. Oh, and speaking of which, CIOGC and a bunch of Chicago Muslim leaders were all gung-ho about attending this rally as well; the Chicago khateebs email list (which incidentally rejected my email about the IR dinner) was abuzz with announcements about the importance of Muslims going to attend this rally.

But I think the idea behind the rally itself is one of the ludicrous things ever. Here’s why.

To grant amnesty and citizenship to millions of illegal aliens (primarily Mexicans) would be tantamount to rewarding people for committing a crime. The immigration laws of the United States, for better or worse, are still laws of a sovereign nation; they have to be respected and upheld, no matter how unjust or ridiculous one might think them to be. Look, I think the laws on speeding are stupid as well (and hence that can explain my track record for speeding tickets… but that’s another story), but I cannot justify and seek to exonerate myself from such a crime. Yes, I agree that most illegal aliens contribute significantly to the labor force and hence are part of the economic backbone of this country. But the fact remains that you cannot break a law in order to do good. I can’t go around and kill a murderer and say that I’m doing something good through breaking a law. And while these people are doing good for our country (mainly), we cannot overlook the fact that they are criminals who have wantonly broken the law and now want to be given citizenship.

The United States has granted amnesty to illegal aliens in the past, the most recent (that I know of) being in 1986 when more than 2 million illegals were given amnesty. I think that itself was a huge mistake since it basically rewarded criminals and also sent the message that possible amnesty would be given in the future, since the precedent was set. This is exactly what is happening now, since many of these people are pointing to this historical event as a reason for why they should be given citizenship or work visas or whatever.

I think this is stupidity taken to a new extreme. While Mexicans and other illegal immigrants contribute much to our workforce, since they’re not registered as official employees, they also don’t pay any income tax. And many of them send a huge portion of their wages back to Mexico, meaning that that dollar is effectively removed from the American economy and the GDP. So while they complain that they get paid below the minimum wage, its all net income for them, whereas honest, law-abiding citizens and permanent resident (read the desi green card holder) work legitimate jobs and pay a boatload of taxes. These taxes that we pay are used by the government to finance, among other things, education and healthcare. Now when illegals come to this country, of course they have like 10 kids each, and they reap the benefits of public education and healthcare. And while some may argue that they’re still marginalized and left behind due to poorly funded public school systems, this is exactly why urban public schools are languishing since every dollar that is spent on an illegal is a dollar that could have been spent on a resident African American or Latino (read: people who didn’t commit a crime) to improve their condition. The same goes for health care.

Perhaps the most shocking trend amongst illegals is their refusal to integrate into American society by doing simple things like learning English. Because of this, America, which has always been a home to immigrants yet maintained a one-language system, is now becoming a place where one almost has to learn Spanish to get by. Especially as someone working in the medical field, I was made to learn Spanish from a young age, my parents telling me that it was a necessary language to know if I wanted to treat patients–of course, many of those speaking only Spanish being illegals who refuse to learn English. All that time spent learning Spanish in our schools could be spent learning other sciences that could benefit each student more in the long run. Look, I’m all in favor of people being bilingual and knowing multiple languages, but when a second language becomes necessary for everyone else due to some people refusing to learn this country’s primary language, then one must wonder if there is a problem here.

If citizenship or work visas are given to these people, numbered to be anywhere from 12-20 million, what kind of message is that sending to the rest of the world? The message essentially then will be one wherein we say, “Come illegally, you’ll get rewarded eventually.”  An amnesty’s impact
also will adversely affect our population growth, 90 percent of which
today is fueled by immigrants and the birth of their children here.
And on the whole issue of migrating to the US, we see that the vast majority of the illegals in this country are Mexicans and Latinos who’ve ‘jumped’ the border and arrived here. There are places on the Texas-Mexico border where the wall separating the two nations is a mere seven feet. Seven feet! No wonder it’s so easy for people to jump across and enter the land of opportunity. I read that last March, just in one valley on the California-Mexico border, more than 117,000 Mexicans hopped the fence. One month!

And what does that say for all of us who have come here legally? As the child of immigrant doctors who came here in the 70’s on legal work permits, contributed to society, payed their taxes… I’m outraged that there are people who can jump a seven foot fence and enjoy the same freedoms and privileges that my parents had to struggle to obtain. I’m outraged that there’s many people who are on waiting lists for years and years, lawfully waiting until they have a right to come to this country. I mean, how many people have married someone from the motherland and have to wait forever for their spouse to come over? As a personal example, my own cousin (she was born and raised in India) married a green card holder (one with a job who payed his taxes) in 2000… it wasn’t until 2004 that she finally got to migrate to the United States. Four years man, four freakin years. And we have people just jumping over a fence and living it up here.

Lest someone think I’m being racist against the Mexicans, I’m not. Like every race of people, there are angels and devils amongst them. They’re a hardworking and industrious people with a rich heritage and strong family values. They have contributed much to this country and still have much to offer. So I’ve got nothing against legal Latinos being here and working and enjoying the benefits of this country. My problem is with the illegals and those who would seek to justify them through excuses. Especially this trite excuse that “they do jobs that other people won’t do” is pure garbage because that there’s many people in other nations, such as Africa, Eastern Europe, and Asia, that if given the opportunity, would do the same exact jobs that the Mexicans do for this country. The difference is that one people are given the opportunity–the illegal one–while another people are not.

Oh, and the other excuse that things are so bad for them in their country is also pathetic. If things are so bad there, why don’t they work to change the system there? Why do they resort to a criminal act to have a better life in the States? Look, if things are bad (and I agree, they’re terrible), then that’s the hand you’ve been dealt with. You have to work through it. And if someone wants to come to the land of opportunity, then I have no problem with that either, as long as they come legally, go through the proper procedures, maintain a job wherein they pay taxes, and integrate (at least lingustically) with everyone else.

In short, I think my views on this are quite clear, but just to reiterate: I think all illegals should be sent back to their countries. I don’t care if they’re Mexican, Arab, Korean; breaking a law is a crime no matter your origin. To give them citizenship or three-year work visas (and how many of them will even go back after three years?) is irresponsible and threatens the very future of this country.

Finally, I think it’s ridiculous that Chicago Muslim leaders went to support this and demanded that we too support it. The Chicago Muslim community has a smorgasbord of other issues that need to be resolved; showing solidarity with a rally that seeks to legitimize the residency of criminals, in my view, should not be a primary objective for us.

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Please share your comments and criticism on the above.

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70 Comments
  1. Mad props for this post.  I had similar feelings but never put the effort into thinking about it more and expressing it to others.  When I first heard about these rallies a few weeks ago, I was confused as to any legitimate reason anyone would have for making illegal immigration illegal. lol.  But I always assumed that these people had a legit reason for protesting that I fully didn’t understand. It’s also funny how Muslims jump on these bandwagons just so they have an excuse for their voice to be heard as Americans.

  2. ^ I second that

  3. Yeah CIOGC can be weird.
    Perhaps the most shocking trend amongst illegals is their refusal to integrate into American society by doing simple things like learning English.
    Just because they don’t speak English doesn’t mean they’re not being “American.” Aside from the fact that they’re illegal aliens, even legal residents don’t need to know English to be American. Even Desis and Muslims. How many hundreds, maybe thousands of Muslim families are in Chicagoland whose mothers don’t speak English? And they still get by. I would hesitate to call it a shocking trend before realizing that there are many other circumstances that prevent them, or other illegal aliens like Mexicans, from ever learning English (besides the obvious things like money and time). And they still get by without knowing English, even when it comes to issues like health care.
    What you need is an exile from your proper and whiteified Xanga life and to spend a week on Surrey Drive!

  4. KR – you may want to educate yourself more about the HR 4437 bill that is being discussed currently.  Your whole post mentions illegal immigrants as ‘criminals’ which is exactly what the bill EVANTUALLY proposes to do – make being an illegal immigrant, or to aid and abet one, to be a felony.  You’ve jumped the gun on our very own Congress! 
    And let me break it down for you a bit more – you want to do medicine, right?  Perhaps even do some religious/clergy work in this country to advise individuals?  Well under this proposed bill, if you were to see a patient that is an undocumented resident, or if you were to advise an individual with a religious issue this is an undocumented resident, you can be tried for a felony!  You’re a FELON for providing these services!  Just don’t seem right does it?  Perhaps it goes as far as to take away our inalienable rights – but then again, does our current administration care about such silly rights? 
    The government got one thing right here – immigration laws DO need to be changed!  Unfortunately, this administration is taking the conservative approach.  Look, we wouldn’t have so many illegal immigrants if our policies were more effiecient and secure.  Have you been to an INS office?  With your avid Arabic/Urdu/Hindi skills, I’d recommend trying to volunteer/work at an INS office and see the realities of how our government deals with the issue of immigration – it’s sad man.  
    Changes need to be made: we need to go ahead and practice ENFORCED borders to halt the movement of immigrants into this country, and yet also provide a process for undocumented residents of this country to gain stauts.  But to treat them as ‘criminals’ when they’ve existed as law abiding, long time residents – it’s not what our country was built on.  This country has issues – we need to solve this problem of positions of low wages not being sought by citizens of this country – but to take away basic rights given to every resident of this land is not the answer. 
    “The greatness of our country comes from our compassion toward our most vulnerable members.”
    The Prophet SAW taught that one is not a true believer until they love for others what they love for themselves.  The Prophet SAW taught to fight all injustices of the world, whether by our actions, by our tounge, or at the very least to nullify it withinin our hearts.  Do Muslim leaders need to justify their actions more than this?
    I could say much more on the issue but alas, Final Exams are here!  I’ll try (but can’t promise) to come back to take part in the discussion later, InshaAllah.  If nothing else, please make dua’ that my exams go well! 

  5. ok i feel ignint now….. good stuff IShuttari.

  6. saqib: i agree that there’s many desis and other immigrants that dont speak english and get by. but they’re not so many that because of their refusal to learn english, everyone has to learn urdu or hindi or gujurati or whatever. but the problem with mexicans refusing to learn english is that everything is now becoming bilingual… they’ve even rendered the national anthem in spanish. pretty soon, it’s going to become a necessity for everyone to learn spanish in order to communicate, especially with the millions of illegals that are here, especially if one goes into medicine, law, civil service wherein contact with such people is part of the job. and while there are desis that dont know a lick of english, immigrants from other places (relatively, at least) make a much better effort at learning english… why? because they realize they can’t get by in society without knowing it. mexicans dont have that same pressure since everything is in spanish for them. i don’t think that’s fair to favor one ethnicity like that.and i hope that “whitified xanga” thing is a joke because im the farthest thing from white. ive spent enough time in foreign places and amongst non-whites to appreciate them for what they offer. and like i said, i have nothing against legal mexicans being here… it’s against the illegals (from any nation) that i think should be put on the earliest flight and sent back home.shuttari: i was referring to them as criminals in the sense that they broke the laws of immigration in order to get here. i admit that i don’t know every detail of the HR 4437 bills (as i mentioned in the intro), and im not lawyer like you are, but the last time i checked, anytime anyone broke the law, they’re classified as a criminal?as far as the ramifications of the law, aiding and abeting illegals becoming a crime… i agree with you there, that’s taking it to the other extreme as well. im not saying that these people should be denied basic human rights while they’re here. all im advocating is that they should be quickly sent back to their own countries and they should join the ranks of the thousands that wait to come here legally.we ought to be consistent in fighting injustices: we cannot condone the crime of jumping a border and condemn the government’s plan to make giving basic human needs to illegals a crime. both must be condemned. Muslim leaders ought to stop dallying around in this issue of illegal immigration if that means they neglect bigger problems such as domestic violence that goes on in the Muslim community. meaning, that there’s a hierarchy in the list of issues that Muslim leaders ought to involve themselves in. im not saying that advocating for the basic human rights of illegals is not important (though i think that advocating they be given citizenship or work-visas IS)… im just saying there’s more important issues to be dealth with. it’s like extra credit on the test: there’s nothing wrong with doing it (in fact it should be done), but if youre neglecting the main questions on the test, isn’t that plain silly?and what’s up with the lack of eprops… where’s the love man. no du’as for you until i get mine =).

  7. I think we’re confusing two issues here:
    1. Do illegal immigrants have a right to be here and stay here?
    2. Do illegal immigrants have the right to basic needs such as healthcare, etc. while they are here.
    I humbly offer that the answer to no. 1 is no. The answer to no. 2 is yes. I think both the government and people are getting these two issues mixed up.
    And what happens when illegal immigrants can’t get jobs? They resort to crime. As someone wrote in the chatterbox, 95% murders in LA were done by illegals.

  8. kr is an eprop whore. I love him.

  9. 1) they’ve even rendered the national anthem in spanish
    Hahahaahahaha, yeah, I just read about that. Wow. There’s definitely a difference between the Mexicans and the Desis that are here (though you didn’t highlight it). And when it comes to the National Anthem in Spanish, then your bilingual problem definitely becomes legit (which is more than anything a frustration for your future medical practice ). Haha, can’t get over how funny that is, the National Anthem in Spanish. Wow.
    2) But to treat them as ‘criminals’ when they’ve existed as law abiding, long time residents – it’s not what our country was built on. – IShuttari 
    I was going to reply asking how you could possibly call them “criminals”, but I didn’t wanna get into things that people who’d do 8000 times better of a job than me could (like Mr. Attorney Saab Irfan). I think a criminal is PRIMARILY someone who breaks the rules of Allah, like stealing, killing, fraud, political corruption, etc. Even those crimes which, on a big picture, aren’t considered jack here, like alcohol, adultery, prostitution, pornography, etc. The ones who commit those acts are the real criminals. As for those who are over here in this country because it has an immigration system that constitutes sheer jagbaggery, because US borders are set up in ways where these millions can come in and not be traced for years, where when they come they’re encouraged to work small labor jobs therefore encouraging more to come over illegally, where they have every reason to come over here and start a new life, can we really call them criminals for not obeying the laws of an unjust country like the US? And if they really are criminals (by US standards, anyways) then why aren’t there mass deportations or even incarcerations for these people?
    3) As a personal example, my own cousin (she was born and raised in India) married a green card holder (one with a job who payed his taxes) in 2000… it wasn’t until 2004 that she finally got to migrate to the United States. Four years man, four freakin years. And we have people just jumping over a fence and living it up here.
    That’s huge man. Awesome point. And I know exactly what and exactly who you’re talking about and I even think back to my own family members in Detroit faced with these issues. SubhanAllah. Our people, like your cousin and all us Desis/Muslims, we friggin’ go through a battle to get the right to come here. When it comes to people like your cousin and her husband, waiting for years and him going back and forth to India and finally after four years bringing her over, looking at illegal Mexicans in a positive light is rather difficult.
    4) I’m outraged that there are people who can jump a seven foot fence and enjoy the same freedoms and privileges that my parents had to struggle to obtain.
    Well Mexico is just a border-fence hop away and India is on the opposite of the world. It’s almost like having a cable service that has X-Rated TV and getting mad at your son for watching it, while comparing him to the neighbor’s kid who doesn’t watch it because his dad doesn’t have it available on their subscription. We ALL know that if India was where Mexico is now, them Desis’d be hoppin’ it over like Bollywood pops out 80 million movies a year. Desis. Man this post reminds me so much of Surrey Drive, lol. I love that place.
    5) (which incidentally rejected my email about the IR dinner)
    I’m sure there is a brainstorm for the blood bathed battles for political positions amongst our masaajid and such that’s just aching to be put up in Xanga post form, but you probably won’t do it for various reasons like gheeba and stuff. Darn!
    6) It’s also funny how Muslims jump on these bandwagons just so they have an excuse for their voice to be heard as Americans. – Junaid11
    Solid.
    7) and i hope that “whitified xanga” thing is a joke because im the farthest thing from white.
    Haha, you wish. You’re a whitey until the end of time. The rhymes in your parodies are so white they remind me of country musack (yes it was a joke, ro nakko).

  10. Finally, I think it’s ridiculous that Chicago Muslim leaders went to support this and demanded that we too support it.These are the phrases that came to mind when I heard this on the news:”Bandwagon mentality” / “reactionary activism”

  11. Anonymous permalink

    Aw come on… who’s gonna mow my lawn?
    Playin.. I agree, esp with paragraph 9 about jumping the fence.

  12. What do you call a Mexican guy without a shovel?

    unemployed
    hahahahha im such a bigot

  13. ^But I have mad luv for Muslim Latinos!

  14. Thank you for this post. This is one of those much-needed discussion topics that usually stays in the realm of uncle-chats at dawaats. But dude, with all due respect, I think you’re missing out on the main point of this whole immigration battle. The system is BROKEN. And those of us who follow this issue are calling for COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM, not just amnesty.
    I follow what you’re saying, why is it okay to give amnesty to people who cut in line, while all those law-abiding people are patiently waiting their turn? If you talk to most people at the rally, especially us legal non-Latino residents, the call is not for amnesty alone, but a complete overhaul of the system such that amnesty is not needed.
    There’s a reason your cousin had to wait four years in India: Bureaucracy. The system lacks the capacity it needs to handle the volume of paperwork that comes in a timely manner. If we (i.e. the US gov’t) have funds to toss around for pork barrel projects, we can certainly invest more in the INS to speed up the process, including family reunification programs. That means shorter waits in line for legal immigration, thereby decreasing the incentive and need to come to the US illegally. If I know I have a sizable chance of coming to the US legally without waiting 15 years in line, I’m less likely to take that life-threatening trip across the desert border (Have you seen the stats on the number of people who die coming over in car trunks and covered barrels?).

    It seems simple enough, until of course you throw in political interests that control every legislators action. America has jobs that no Americans wants, SO increase work permits/visas for people willing to take on these jobs.
    People leave their countries in search of the American dream b/c conditions are bad at home, SO improve US foreign policy and increase aid and trade with our neighbors to help improve conditions abroad so that people don’t HAVE to leave home.
    And FYI, these so-called “criminals”DO pay taxes. They pay tax on everything that they buy (sales tax), including utilities. Most also pay income taxes using IRS-given Individual Tax Identification Numbers every tax season. (ITINs are ID numbers used for people who don’t have social security numbers, i.e are not here legally. The IRS will take taxes from anyone regardless of their status).
    And if you really want to get these “criminals” to start paying their way, give them formal status so that they’re ALL forced to pay taxes. Keeping them illegal and underground allows them to continue “sucking our resources” without being cornered by the IRS for their share.
    And Latinos are not the only ones that send money back home. I would offer that the majority of immigrants in the West, regardless of country of origin, send some percentage of their income “back home.” There’s a reason Western Union has branches all over the world and that Money Express on Peterson Ave in Chicago (which specializes in India and Pakistan) is thriving. After all, not all of us choose to give our zakat and sadaqa money in America.
    A change is obviously needed. You’re lucky your parents came in the 70s when the US was openly accepting us brown-folk to help fill the black-white race divide. In the last two decades, esp. post 9/11, the immigration process has gotten a lot tougher and longer, as I’m sure cousin, and anyone named Mohammad, will attest.

  15. Don’t have a lot of time, so I just want to make a few quick points
    1.  You argued, that Illegals don’t contribute:  Illegal immigrants pay taxes in the form of sales and other exise taxes, so they contribute to the “system” and still do not receive basic services, such as social security.
    2.  You argued, Illegal is morally reprehensible:  Illegal on the books does not make an act morally reprehensible.  Otherwise, you could legislate against morality and that would make moral behavior illegal and consequently immoral.  In such cases, I think it is morally admirable to break the law.  Often this is how change occurs.
    3.  You argued, Even if laws are unfair they should be followed for the good of the whole: True in some cases, but you cannot lump this all together in one category.  For example, a starving person who steals food is not cheating the system.  In fact, he is exposing weaknesses in the system.  In the same way, Illegal immigrants are coming here because there is a need for them.  Moreover, AMERICANS are hiring them.  The gap seems to be between the government and Americans hiring Illegal immigrants.  This case in particular, this instance of breaking the law has negative consequences, but it also has several positives.  For one, we improve our own diversity.  Secondly, we have mercy on people that have few options (i.e. charity).  You countered that illegals should fix their home countries, but remember, these people are not sophisticated social engineers or revolutionaries.  Often they are not well educated because of the circumstances that they were born in, beyond their control.  My personal opinon is that the globe is owned by Allah and we have no right to ristrict its travel, but that is a separate issue and a much deeper discussion. (side note: Under American law, one who breaks the law is not necessarily called a criminal)
    4.  You argued, Immigrants from other countries are cheated:  If you are concerned about economic unfairness, neigboring countries that are close by also get preferred treatment, so this is nothing new.  I don’t see a problem with the citizens of those countries getting fair treatment because, by virtue of their proximity they consume more American goods and services.  Moreover, the global economy does not require that you physically be here to take advantantage of the US economy.   Regarding all the fringe benefits like health care, etc. – yes I agree that illegals get a better deal, but they are also paying taxes, so thats not so unfair.  If you are talking about illegals unfairly enjoying “the great freedoms that we blessed Americans enjoy;”  I say, I don’t buy that propoganda, and neither should you.  What great freedoms?  Every developed country in the world has the same things.  These peole endure racism by “Americans” everyday… they get treated like dirt to do our work, and we don’t have the humanity to listen to their plight.
    5.  You argued, that they disturb the language uniformity:   I say diversity in language may help Americans expand thier horizons.  God knows they need it.
    VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

  16. wow, mA moeeds tore it up

  17. i hit enter too fasti DO agree, however, that the Islamic leaders of chicago need to refocus their efforts, other than trying to make some new mexican friends. the brother who made the announcement at IFS after Isha (when they didnt let us make an announcement about al-Maghrib or the Islamic Relief dinner…) made it clear that it was important for the Muslims to join the latinos “so that they may help us out when we need it.” its not lame to form alliances, but this justification and alliance itself is kinda lame.

  18. Anonymous permalink

    You are the biggest bastard i done ever encounter. So many crappy points to this post i dont know where to begin. Lets see Lets talk about your issue of mexicans sending money back to mexico taking it out of the economy. You are going to stand here and tell me that every desi person you know who works here kept all the money cirulating in the economy. On the contrary most desis had no idea of where to invest it so listened to their dumb ass friend and went and invested it in pakistna and india. Mexicans don’t even make that much. You have desi doctors supporting thier empovershed families sending alot more money back home. By this logic all foreigners shouldn’t be allowed to work in the country.
    2nd do you or anyone you know want any of these jobs mexicans have. Do you want to mow lawns, or clean toilets cook in restraunts. Do you think any american will want these jobs. There are a reason these jobs are highly represented by mexicans and other illegal immigrants. Nobody else wants them. In my opinion the whole reason for kicking hte mexicans out is to accomidate the rising rate of high school drop outs. But either way, your just being a hater. NOt like these illegal immigrants hold prestigious jobs, they do the scummy jobs that you  or I don’t want.
    3rd your ignorant comment about they fail to integrate to our society and learn english. Have you ever listend to a kutbha at ifs. THe broken english, backward traditional thinking and failed logic patterns behind them. You go to devon you see mad tabligue jamatis rolling around in their shalwaar kameez, is that the social intigrating you want?
    This was an ignorant post my friend. Your logic behind these arguments were foolish. Mexicans don’t fight for equal rights, they accept their rolls as second tier citizens. Like moeeds say they still pay taxes when they purchase goods. The employer of cheap mexicans are eventually taxed for the labor the mexicans are responsible for. Economies need such slave like labor to survive. OUr economy was built off it, and the minium wage wasn’t introduced till the last century. Hence you need these illegal immigrants to work under the table under the minimum wage to help the economy grow. Weather you belive its just or fair, most people fail to realize how many businesses rely on this kind of labor. The government will get their money either way. God this post was retarded. Remind me to slap you in the head next time i see you. Stupid mexican hater

  19. i think many times you cross boundaries on what you are knowledgable enough to discuss and write about. I know you want to act all cosmopolitan and show people that you are a man of many trades, but you have absolutely ZERO background knowledge on this subject and thus ZERO legitimacy when addressing it. I am sorry KR, someone had to say it. stick to woman-bashing, self-aggrandizement, matters pertaining to Islam, the Bulls, and event advertising. Please dont pollute the opinion of those who blindly follow you by jumping into topics you are not familiar with. I’ll say ANYTHING. ANYTHING. and dont get all pissy just cuz i was man enough to speak the truth. take it as nasiha. fag.and i gave you eprops just to stroke your ego. watch as i stroke your ego.*stroking your ego*muhahahhaha….yeah homosexuality!!!

  20. scintillating dialogue…alas, too many sides to this issue…
    how about deporting everybody and then instituting a guest worker program at the border…have all 12 million line up at the fence and get their papers stamped and then they can go back to their lawn mowing…

  21. Moeeds comment: werd
    Isaac’s comment: werd up
    This post was just plain wrong, this country’s backbone is the immigrants.  So let me guess this post basically symbolizes you standing with all the red necks, holding up signs and booing the immigrants that were rallying.
    Say this to yourself slowly, and think about this statement. YOUR AN IMMIGRANT TO THEM ALSO.
    yeah sure, first they are starting with the illegals, then the legal immigrants. Point is, your not white, none of us are.  And to top if off, your a muslim….so now they have two things against you.
    You said the comment, that things are not that good for them back home, so they came here. And that they should try to resolve thier own system in thier respective countries. Well I think your parents, my parents and everyone else parents came here for a better life, mainly for thier kids (yes that us).  What do you have to say to that.
    And the comment on learning another language, thats wrong also. I think learning other languages broadens our horizan.  Alhumdulilah I speak English, Urdu, and Spanish, and some day hope to speak Arabic. Now I can serve the English speaking, the Urdu speaking, and the Spanish speaking…and thats alot of coverage. I think we all should take the advantage to learn other languages, its a great thing.  It just shows how globalized we can become in this world.  I don’t blame the illegals for not having good english, or for that matter not being able to speak at all.  There are places here in america where you can live your entire life with out having to learn english….Devon street is one of them.  again we need more diversification.
    I have alot of other points, but I would just be repeating what some of the others have said in thier comments..( Moeed bhaiya and Isaac mad props).
    Let me tell you a story that took place recently in florida.  During picking season, illegals would come in by the bus loads for work. The local hicks got really mad, and passed a law saying that illegals are not allowed to work, and the farmers would be fined heavily. That picking season, no illegals came for work.  that picking season was the worst season ever, and farmers lost tons of money. The following year they had to repeal that law.  Point of the story, the hicks will complain about the jobs being taken, but they dont want to do those jobs.
    Go Whatch this movie called “A day with out mexicans”. It will help you appreciate what these illegals can do.
    Bottom line, I am shocked to see this post come from an educated muslim non white first generation immigrant.
    Sangre, Sudor, y Trabaja Duro, Viva el Movimiento, VIVA LA REVOLUCION.

  22. Kamran, I think you’ve been listening to way too much conservative talk radio. These are the exact same arguments that Hannity, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage and the rest of the right wing ilk have against illegal immigrants. I don’t want to beat a dead horse by repeating the same arguments as my esteemed brethren above but you have to admit that these immigration laws aren’t going to do anyone any benefit except alleviate the anger and alienation felt by millions of people living in this country. Call me a pessimist but is it fair to say that evertyhing that’s come out of this current administration has contributed to the further declination of our society as a whole. How are we to assume that these immigration laws are any better? And these conservatives arguing that people who come to this country should act American…what exactly does it mean to act more American? Just because these conservatives are xenophobes who never bothered to learn anything past their little red neck bubbles…does that mean we should follow suit and not hold to our heritage in this country and speak whatever language we please? I agree with Asim…these same guys who are against these immigrants are the same guys who wish to marginalize Muslims as well. I’d take heed before taking their side on any issue. Even if you find yourself agreeing with them, tis better to stay silent than letting them know they have your support. And about the rally, when 400,000 people come together to complain about something, I think they might have something worth hearing and responding to. And Allah knows best.

  23. overall, im enjoying the comments and feedback. im learning a lot from some of these comments. it’s somewhat unfortunate that some of you have resorted to emotional outbursts in your replies, but that’s ok. anyway, like i said, im not speaking from an expert position here, lest anyone think that i think that i’m the only one who’s right here. im simply sharing some thoughts that have been running through my mind during the past couple of days. anyway, a few responses to individual comments:sheikhmango: indeed. good stuff, that’s exactly what i was thinking too, but i like the terms youve employed to denote what i was thinking =)falooda: legal immigrants or anyone else… in the past, high school kids used to do it. now since illegals will do it for much cheaper, these kids have to find jobs elsewhere.tn101: welcome, great first comment. i stand corrected on some things such as the taxes bit. i didn’t know about the ITINs bit, so thank you for that. the points you brought up about poorly organized bureaucracy… great stuff, you expounded on some of the things that i had hinted at but didnt formulate clearly. i agree, the immigration laws of this country suck… big time. they need to be changed. we should open up the borders and control the flow of people, proportionate to the labor demand. but as far as giving them formal status… i disagree. i think that granting another amnesty will compound the problem (since we’ll be establishing another precedent) and reward illegals for breaking the law. in a time when this country is all gung-ho about national security, why is it not concerned about protecting its own borders rather than starting wars with anyone who looks at us the wrong way? i say that all illegals should be sent back, the immigration laws should be drastically amended in order to meet the labor demand, and people from ALL nations should be given equal opportunity to come here and earn a living. the argument is that mexicans do jobs that no one wants, like cleaning, cooking, etc. but how do we know that people from other countries, such as eastern europe, africa, etc will not do these same jobs? i argue that they would, and if we REALLY want america to be diverse, then bring people in from ALL OVER the world. not just mexico. this country’s strength has always been due to the positive influences from each ethnic group of immigrants. my concern is that an overwhelming number of illegal immigrants from latin countries will threaten that balance.moeeds: welcome, its been a while since ive read your always interesting thoughts. i think i responded to #1 in my reply to tn101. in reply to #2, however, i don’t see how breaking any law is admirable. look, i dont like speed limit laws or heck, even tax laws. i think they’re unjust and they ought to be reformed. but does that give me a license to go ahead and break them… and then demand that i be rewarded for my actions? im not a lawyer (like you are, mashallah =) ), but the way i see american law is that it’s one that is devoid of maintaining a sense or element of “morality” (however one wishes to define that, according to one’s relgious, educational, etc. background). the point being is that the law is imperfect, no doubt about that, but it’s the law nonetheless. if we start saying that it’s ok to break one law, what kind of floodgates will be opened up then? can i then not pay my taxes because i think it’s morally wrong that they’re being to fund wars and atrocities on other people, especially Muslims? so i think that since this country has laws, for better or worse, people have to respect them. certainly, we should work for change within the system to reform and redress ridiculous laws (and i agree, current immigration laws are stupid). but to suggest that breaking the law is the first step to change is not only radical, but it is not something from the Muslim historical tradition either. as for #3, i agree with the gap between the american gov’t and americans hiring illegals, which is why the policies on immigration should change. but i cannot agree with amnesty. as far as having mercy on people, if we have mercy on illegals from mexico, why dont we open up our borders and take EVERYONE from all over the world. look, there’s just as many people suffering in other places of the world as there are in latin countries. perhaps it is cruel what im suggesting, that we send all illegals back and have them come legally… but i think if the US doesn’t show some moxy here, it’ll only open up the floodgates for more and more illegals. as far as the globe being owned by Allah, agreed… cept this isnt a nation under islamic laws, so that goes out the window. if we were living in a muslim country and having this discussion, then we could apply that principle. as for #4, if we’re gonna base how we treat people who consume more american goods and services, dude, we should never go to war in the middle east then… cause those people will buy the spit of an american. and yes, they get treated like dirt and they work, i tip my cap to them. we need people to do these jobs. let’s just get them here legally. as for #5, i dont think its contributing to diversity if the only language that is being added and dominating over all other languages is spanish. true diversity is when you have ALL languages from major areas of the world equally represented. when immigrants from other countries came in the past (european, etc.), they learnt english because that was the dominant language of this country. again, im SUPPORTIVE of people having their own culture and language but not at the expense that it becomes a dominant one that is equal to or greater than english, which has been chosen as the language for this nation. and yes, viva la revolucion… as long as it’s within the system. the muslim model has always been to bring out change within the system, never in spite of it.servantofthebeneficent: dead on my man, dead on. i hate this Muslim mentality of “we’re only doing this so we can get something out of it”. we should do things so that Allah will reward us. it’s sad that we’re forgetting that recently.isaac: i agree that desis and other foreigners send money out. i used that detail to describe some of the activities of illegals; i didnt make it the number one reason for why they should be sent back home. again, my number one reason is that they came here illegally. send them back home and let them come here legally. i think i responded to the jobs part in my responses above so i wont do it here. as far as the integration, let me be clear, i only meant lingustic integration. im not saying that everyone should dye their hair blonde and become white (im completely against that type of integration), but there has to be some common factors that everyone ought to have if we want to call ourselves american. sharing a common language so that we can communicate with one another… i dont think that’s too much to ask for. as for your hilarious examples of the khateebs and TJs, at least most of these people try to learn english. while some illegals do, most don’t. the legal ones however, do, and im all for them. again, keep in mind people, im talking about the illegals here. sheesh.hasan: youre an idiot. but i love you. i like how you attempted to completely undermine my expertness on this topic when at the very outset of this i claimed no expertise and in fact clearly stated my ignorance on this topic. like i said, this was merely stating my opinions, and ive learnt a lot from many of these comments. queenrooji: this is exactly what i was suggesting =)asimsaeed: yes, this country’s backbone is immigrants, no doubt. but it should be legal immigrants, those who have gone through the correct procedure to come here. and read this very slowly, and think about it: I AM NOT AN IMMIGRANT since i was born here and am the child of legal immigrants (who became citizens). there’s a difference. and let’s not get emotional and conflate americans’ anti-islam sentiments with their anti-immigrant ones. the only thing that “they” (whoever they are) have against me and you is that we’re Muslim. now, legally until this point, i don’t have to apologize or face legally-mandated injustices and opposition because of that. as messed up as this country is, theoretically, at least, we’re still afforded religious freedom. so i’d argue that “they” have nothing against me, legally at least. and yes, our parents came here for the search of a better life. but none of them broke the laws of this country to come here. im all for immigration reform and opening the borders equally to ALL countries so that people from all over the world can come here and contribute to the economic, social, and cultural betterment of this country. so what i have to say to that is my parents came here legally and became citizens legally. as for the comment about learning another language, if you read what i wrote carefully, you’d see that my point was that im not against people learning other languages (im all for people being multilingual), but now because of the illegal immigrant problem, learning spanish is becoming essentially mandatory for students, preventing them from learning say another language they might enjoy, such as french, german, latin, or heck, even arabic. since we have to be reactionary to the immigrant problem, students are indirectly FORCED to learn spanish. this is what i think isn’t right, why students are being FORCED to learn it due to illegal immigrants. as far as your story, again, im not saying that illegal immigrants are the scum of the earth; dude, i mentioned repeatedly that they’re doing good stuff here. but the fact remains that we cannot become machiavellian and start saying that the ends justify the means. if we started doing that, we can justify nearly every crime on the face of this planet; some may even use this to justify 9/11. the point being, that as a person of conscience and especially as a Muslim, we cannot be machiavellian. a ridiculous law that is broken is still a broken law. to conclude, i appreciate your comments (despite them being charged with emotion) but im disappointed to see that you’ve responded to my objective statements with subjective responses. keep the emotion out of it. oh, btw, it’s a matter of nuance, but i thought i’d point it out: it’s impossible for one to be an immigrant AND a first-generation… first-generation implies that youre the child of immigrants. didn’t mean any offense with this, but just thought i’d point it out. i appreciate the feedback.sadiq: hehe, contrary to your beliefs, i only listen to ESPN AM 1000 =). i think i’ll call in one of these days. anyway, yeah, i think i partially agree with the neocons here (*lightning crackles in the background*). wisdom is the lost property of the believer, and wheresoever he finds it, he ought to take of it. now, i hate the neocons on nearly every issue, but this happens to be one wherein at least one facet of their stance on immigration i agree with, ie, send all illegals back home. most of the other points you bring up, i think i answered them in my responses to other comments. but just cause the people who want to marginalize immigrants are the same ones who want to marginalize muslims, we can’t just go against their stances on illegal immigrants due to their animosity against us. in the former case, their stance is a primary legal one, whereas against us, their stance is one of paranoia and religious intolerance. i dont think we should conflate these two reasons. finally, just cause 400,000 people showed up doesnt mean a thing. i mean, how many people voted for bush, 50 million? does that make that a good thing too?

  24. being that neocons don’t have much regard for legalities (exhibit A: Gitmo Prisoners), I would have to disagree that their stance on immigrants is a primary legal one. and as far as comparing those who rallied to Bush supporters, that’s just cold homie.

  25. Wow, the comments on this post were even better than the post itself.
    KR, how can you be against immigrant amnesty?
    Tony Montana became Tony Montana because no one gave him amnesty, lol.

  26. i hate to say this, but this post is like reading the transcription of an Ann Coulter speech*shudder*

  27. ^ouch.

  28. I agreed with a lot of what you said. I mean, this whole situations bothers me. My dad came from India, legally, in the 70’s, and worked like crazy from being a nanny to my cousins to being a busboy then working in a factory and then FINALLY getting a job as an engineer. He had to sponsor my mom who waited two years before she could join him. Another example, my husband’s widowed khala wanted to visit her sisters here in the US. She travelled to Madras, waited for HOURS in line at the embassy before she could be interviewed, only to be rejected. Why? Because, according to the immigration officer, she might come to the US and settle there illegally. She begged them, saying all her children are in India, she only wanted to go for a couple of months and come back, but they refused her. I know another example of a sister here in the US who is citizen, born and raised, who married her cousin in India like 4 years ago or something. He is being refused a visa to come to the US (even though he is married to a citizen) because his parents tried to cheat the immigration people in India like years ago (and he had nothing to do with that). See, because of the illegal actions of some people, everyone else who is trying to do things the right way have to suffer. I understand that there are many sides of the issue though.

  29. Ha, Ann Coulter. She’s so entertaining.
     This discussion was a great, much-needed distraction from finals.  I was a bit surprised by your stance on the whole issue, but my main points have already been covered by some of the excellent comments above.    

  30. i mostly disagree with you on mostly this entire post. I understand you when you’re talking about how citizens have to pay taxes and all that jazz, but illegals don’t have to. that kinda sucks. but they’re definetly not living the same as citizens are. they don’t have it easy at all. they definetly don’t have the same freedoms or whatever that we all have. you called America the land of oppurtunity. that’s exactly what it is. especially to these people. they want to start a new life and make things better for themselves, or like you said for their families back in their homeland. which leads back to what you said about them having a rough life and trying to make it better themselves. well, that’s what they’re doing arent they? they’re making the little money that they are here in the states and sending it back home so their families can get by. these people are just trying to get by. I mean, they’ve heard of “oh my god, America!! you can do this, and you can have that.” America is like a whole new world. and then they come here and they’re treated like crap. worse crap than the crap they were in their own country.
    And you can’t just fix it. that’s like saying, oh the inner cities are bad..so then work to improve it. you can’t just do something about it. its the system that’s got to change. you take out all the illegal immigrants, you wouldn’t have anything. all the big people would be lost because there’s no little people doing the little yet signifigant work. who knows, someone could be trying to kill them if they go back. (i saw this movie called El Norte. it’s pretty good, you should watch it..anyway the kid and his little sister are illegals because the guatemalteco government killed their dad and the rest of their family and was gonna kill them too.)fine it might be breaking laws, then maybe the laws need to change. good post though. we’re talking about this a lot in my english class because we’re about to read a book about it. i’ll have to come back here later and check out everyone elses comments. it looks like a good heated discussion.
    peace.p.s. i would choose spanish of science in a heartbeat.

  31. I agree with a lot of your points, they are criminals, why should they have the same benefits as people who struggled to get here?I also don’t totally agree with the bill. The bill does need some reform. It shouldn’t attack those who are “helping” or providing service to the illegal immigrants, many times you don’t even know if they are or not. It won’t stop the problem, it needs to be more geared towards those who are doing the crime…

  32. KR, to say I’m disappointed with this post is an understatement. You sound like an ignorant republican who probably has a couple of illegal immigrants working around his house.I can understand the perspective which illicited some of the points, but I definitely don’t agree with some of them. You should probably take a look at the other side and imagine the perspective of those that are risking their lives trying to get into this country illegally. To label anyone that disobeys the law a criminal pretty much makes all of America, legal citizens and otherwise, all criminals simply because of the fact that we all break simple traffic laws. That argument is just straight up garbage.You really should have read up on the proposed law before posting. Just cause your xanga is popular doesn’t always mean that you know what your talking about. And more hurtful to you than all the negative comments in the world: “No props for you.”

  33. hassansmomma: exactly. this is why illegal immigrants should not be allowed in cause so many other immigrants (including our own family members) have borne similar struggles to legally come to this country.thingonmyhead: sigh, i thought i explained this many times in my response to other comments, but i’ll explain it again. 1. im not against immigration. this country needs to have a steady stream of immigrants to fuel our labor demands.2. i’m advocating that all immigrants be ones that legally arrive in this country3. i say that immigration should equally be opened up to other countries so we can REALLY be diverse, instead of american diversity tilting ONLY towards a latino one.4. in the meantime, granting amnesty to illegals would only encourage more illegals. illegals should be sent back, and they should get in line to come to this country legally.5. the american govt needs to immediately change its immigration policies. on one hand, they need to police the border better. but more importantly, they need to make enough provisions so that we can get enough LEGAL immigrants flowing in to do all these jobs that need to be done.xpikax: i agree, that bill is complete garbage. as much as i dont agree with illegals being here, if one of them comes to me for healthcare, i will gladly give it to them. for them to make that a crime is ridiculous. that has to strongly be rejected.kazim: to say that im disappointed with your comment is also an understatement. yes, people risk their lives to get into this country, but many people risk their lives for other criminal activities too: drug runners, weapons smugglers, etc. too risk their lives in order to “improve” their lot in life. and yes, i know that things are TERRIBLE in latin countries. but look, things are JUST AS BAD in eastern europe, africa, and asian nations too. just cause things are bad in countries that are geographically closer to the US doesnt mean we should allow for this country’s laws to be trampled on. look, the laws suck, no doubt, but at the end of the day, it’s still the law. the law should be changed, but in the meantime, people should follow it. and look, when you and i break speeding laws, we get punished (my bill of paying nearly $700 in traffic tickets over the years is enough testament). meaning, when i break a law and i get caught, i get punished. i can’t say, “oh, i was speeding to get to jumu’ah on time” or “i was going to volunteer at a soup kitchen”… in both cases, i was doing something wrong (the means) to do something good (the end). yet, when the officer pulls me over, he’ll tell me, “hey, that’s great that youre doing that but i gotta write you a ticket.” similarly, . so if you get caught, you gotta face the music. yet when illegals get caught, they want a free ticket (no pun intended). and from the intro itself, i said that these are just my opinions… im not speaking from an expert vantage point. the whole reason i posted this was to start discussion and exchange of ideas. so i dont take these comments as ‘negative’ but rather as comments that are contributing to this discussion, which im definitely enjoying. as for the no props… you’re a donkey.

  34. Forgive me for reiterating points made earlier as I haven’t read all the comments, being finals week.  But there are few points to make:
    1. Legality of the word does not equal morality.  I jaywalk. You jaywalk. We all jaywalk.  It is illegal, but does that make us moral apprehensible? But you say even if the laws are terrible, but it’s still the law.  I don’t think it’s as black or white as that.
    2. Although I agree that it’s not fair for those who wait legally for immigration, the fact this is bill labels them as such. Thus, in any future attempt to reaapply for immigration will be faced with a rejection.  A little harsh in my opinion.  I think the idea of making millions of illegals to leave the country would be impractical and would destroy the lives of many families here.
    3. The economic system is a huge point here.  We are still in the midst of a recession and removing the immigrant population would cause serious short-term problems.  You pay 99cents/lb for apples now because of cheap labor.  Imagine that labor gone and boom, it’s 99cent per apple.  Consumer spending would decrease and hurt an already low economy.
    4. Personally, I felt the foundations of this nation were built on immigrants, illegal or otherwise.  Honestly, did the Europeans that settled here “ask” the natives if they could?  Did they law of the natives matter, let alone respecting their right to live?  I feel that plenty of people in days of the recent past have come to this land for a better life and as a result, their children have given added towards the welfare of this nation.  Yes, our parents came legally, but they had their educational background help them gain that opportunity. What of those without that option?  The point is illegal immigration is a reaction to the problems. Fix the problems first.
    5. As future medical practitioners, we have a duty to help all facts of life.  If our nation does become more spanish speaking, so be it. It’s another addition of knowledge we require to serve the public.  And when is learning a new language so much a bad thing? 🙂
    On a side note, this issue was brought up in the Rush Pediatrics clinic when I was working there, and all the physicians were very against the bill. Especially when the bill states that anyone aiding an illegal can be held accountable. 
    Anyways, forgive me if this doesn’t make sense. I’m tired. Got a final tomorrow. 

  35. yea, its interesting to read everyone’s comments… too bad I don’t have one, hehe.  just props for standing your ground and takin heat.

  36. ANYONE INTERESTED IN ANOTHER SIDE OF THE TRUTH, IQRA.

    ATTENTION.  Perhaps some of you were unfortunate, (or maybe fortunate?) enough to have read the entire entry, as well as the comebacks. 
    To begin,  anyone who broke it down and showed (?) Kamran that that was a pile of dookey -right on.  And Kamran, much love, but you are going to have to hear this straight.
    First of all, someone mentioned, this is all Allah (swt)’s land.  Second of all, no regime is legit unless they accept that all sovereignty belongs to Allah (swt), hence the issue of Jihad at-Talab in Islam, or bringing it to the enemies.
    Okay.  taking this into consideration, why are you even taking american laws into consideration?  Its just hypocrisy upon hypocrisy!  I dont say this without hard cold facts.  Amongst other things, this government is one of Kufr.  Surah Al-Maidah Ayat 44, 45 and 47. 
    Second of all, on a more “logical” plane of thinking, this country is built on the oppression and subjugation of other nations.  I agree, people need to learn to fix their own situations and hold their own, so to speak, in any REGION OF ALLAH’s EARTH.  Including where your family came from before they fled to the U.S.  Now, all those tax dollars that your mom and pop legitamitely paid, well guess what?  That just galvanizes the fact that everyone in this country legally has to have the blood of innocents on their hands.  You have to, otherwise you are probably (except for a few players) here illegally.  Okay, I am not sure if all can understand, but to try and sum it up a bit (too much electricity and no capacitor) you need to realize that those bullets, that so efficiently kill my sisters… those were made, and paid for, with american dollars.  Those american dollars aren’t private funds, rather, they are your dad’s, and my dad’s tax dollars.  So, subhanAllah…
    A muslim this day in age has two choices.
    A.  Live in a land of open oppression, where people are sensured, locked and jailed, tortured, and perhaps executed for dissension.
    B.  Pay your taxes like any good legal asshole, and fund the acts in choice A, while living in a land that lets you live it up, and WOW! even send some of your mafia begotten wealth to “charities.”  But, you know and I know, cutting off someones leg and then giving them prosthetics doesn’t make you a “good guy.”  It makes you and asshole, and may just qualify us for a one way ticket to jahannam.  Audhu billah.
    Okay.  I am sorry, but I don’t think I have the space to properly address this issue, so I am just trying to grease the bearings, and bi’idhnillah, the wheels will move.
    So, considering shaitan has had some 1400 years to get at this ummah in particular, not to mention his massive skills of old,  I am not surprised that so many muslims are so fooled, including myself.  SubhanAllah.

    I left out the third choice.  Its the one that makes arrogant proud evil dizzy, makes shaitans army tremble, and make fake-ass muslims say “Brother, this is not the way.”  And you know what it is. 
    Why did you think you’d deserve a crown on the LAST DAY if you did it?  Because it isn’t easy going against the flow in a torrent that is near the drain hole.
    Hadith:
    “No, the best amongst the believers are those who come after me, and believe in what I have brought after finding the Quran bound in a book.  They will believe even though they haven’t seen me, and their reward is that of 40 (or 50) of you.  They are of me, my brothers.”
    Its not a walk in a park bro, and not all things are said openly… and this government has no real legit laws, so its a non-issue islamically.  No need for debate.  White people come to the native americans land, occupy the land for 200 years, and then you have muslims arguing for the rights of the occupiers.  Astaghfirullah.
    Let them come. 
    Salaamalaikumwarahmatullahiwabarakatu.
    No lost love bro.

  37. Oh yeah, many of you may wonder what the third choice is…
    I’ll give you a hint, it is the best one.
    And don’t be goofy and ask me particulars, because I will just respond, “What? Huh? LoL, you crazy.”   Because the believer is smart and aware. 

  38. Wow, I just read a tiny bit of the comments, Iqureshi+Kwkkz+Bighaas+Thing on my head+Everyone else who disagreed=Ballers.
    Thats what I’m talking about, not out of spite, rather because sometimes emotions are correct because human fitra kicks butt. Alhamdullilah.
    =)

  39. servantofallah: it’s interesting to note that you’ve self-proclaimed your opinions as truth, without using any standard to measure them as such. this is like me saying, “my mom’s biryani is the best cause i said so.” anyway, just that opening line tells me how emotionally-charged your argument is and why anyone who would wish to look at this issue in sophisticate and cosmopolitan manner should immediately stop reading the rest of what you wrote. nevertheless, since it’s my xanga, i wish i could just stop reading, but i feel obliged to respond to some of your statements. overall, youve fallen into the same trap that everyone else who has commented on this post has fallen into: conflating separate issues into one. ok, as far all the unsophisticated and emotionally charged rhetoric you wrote about judging by the laws of God and quoting surah al-ma’idah, let’s drop the HT bit, shall we? this issue that this post deals with, ie, that of illegal immigration to the united states, should not be conflated with the issue of whether american laws are acceptable to Allah. those are two separate issues. but to answer your question, yes, they have to be followed since our classical Imams have said that one must follow the laws of the land that one lives in, or else leave. now, considering that there’s on place in the world that’s following shari`ah, tell us, where we should go. to use this as the premise of your argument, then apply it to america’s laws on immigration, is not only far-fetched, but is quite sophomoric. this is like me saying, “America! land of kuffar! these laws are kafir laws! i shouldn’t pay taxes, follow the speed limit, report to jury duty, etc.” childish. blood of innocents, jihad… not sure what that has to do with illegal immigrants, but oh well.moving on, it seems that the rest of your comments are roundabout statements advocating for jihad and creating a muslim state. not only does it drift as you write it (i had to read it several times to make sure i could follow your train of thought), but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. perhaps i should respond to those statements, since i completely disagree with them, but doing so would further detract from the topic of this particular post. perhaps some day in the future, inshallah.anyway, while i admire your sincerity and commend you for your passion and good-intentions, i cannot help but scratch my head as to why this type of response was used for this particular topic. no offense, but it seemed like a fire-and-brimstone pep rally speech that left me wondering, “great, what’s next? ok, let’s go watch a movie.”and finally, as far as emotions being correct because human fitrah kicks butt… to act from emotion is not part of fitrah, since fitrah is superimposed over emotions. in other words, when the Muslim speaks, acts, or thinks from fitrah, he is operating at a higher level than mere emotion; hence the Prophetic examples of hilm and maintaining his cool when everyone around him was overcome with emotion. on the authority of Sahl b. Sa`aadi, “Deliberation is from God, and immediacy is from the Devil”, from the collection of Imam al-Tirmidhi.no love lost.

  40. well stated, but can you bring proof of what you attribute to “all the imams of old?”
    …if not, you may realize there is more to my statements then what you think you got.

  41. Considering what all the “Imam’s of old” have reached consensus about, you would know that there is a consensus of their opinion of choice number three.  And yes, it would be fard ‘ayn, and yes, I would go as far as to advise you to be very careful around those who are willing to come up with an argument to the contrary.  No one is 100% safe from Nifaq, and I have a hadith which you would benefit from -but maybe I will give it to you after I read what you respond with.

  42. wow! we’ve got some interesting issues brought up here. some of these comments have turned long enough to be posts themselves…hehe!

  43. Btw… “or else leave…” 
    Maybe you were on to something, and no matter who you attribute an ayah to, it doesnt change it, or its command, or the truth it brings.  Lets agree not to consent to fisq, shall we?

  44. Don’t confuse words that you have heard before from emotional people as simple emotion…  They may have been speaking the truth at the time.

  45. Thats what I’m talking about, not out of spite, rather because sometimes emotions are correct because human fitra kicks butt. Alhamdullilah.
    Notice “sometimes.” and “because.”
    Human fitra influences emotion at times.

  46. And I am not really “consolidating unrelated issues into one” rather, I, as well as some of the other commentors were pointing out the baselessness of a building builr on air.  Maybe we should fight for the right of Israel to exist, because they have laws that say, “Israel first.”
    Please, Think deeply.

  47. gay post… awesome comments… Mexicans rule… oh i didn’t make it to the rally… oops…

  48. My other problem with your post is this statement:
    “Oh, and the other excuse that things are so bad for them in their country is also pathetic. If things are so bad there, why don’t they work to change the system there? “
    That statement would then apply to all immigrants, illegal or not.  If this is the case, then our parents, (with their education and skills in medicine, business, engineering, etc) had no right to come to America.  They should have stayed back in their respective corrupted governments and lands and “work the change the system there”.  Instead, what occured is the classical “brain drain” phenomenon in economics, and in the context of your statement I mentioned, may in fact be a worse act. 
    At least in the case of the illegal Mexican immigrants, it’s not their educated, but their disenfranchised that are crossing the border.  And one has to wondering, if they are willing to risk they’re lives crossing that border, especially with the armament of today’s border patrol, maybe things are worse than we realize?
    I’m personally not judging any immigrant leaving their respective lands, nor do I think they did the wrong thing.  But what I am saying is that if you do make statements like this, you have to be consistent.
    Still waiting on your comments on my previous comments. 😉

  49. Anonymous permalink

    Hmmm… I have to say, some of these people have made very valid points.
    I think it’s time to change your header to “Kr156 is back to being a bad guy”  🙂

  50. vagrantrounin: i think ive responded to your comments during my responses to other people’s comments, but since you asked so nicely for a personal reply, here goes:
    1. i never made this an issue of morality. look, we’re talkin about american law here, one that we all agree is completely devoid of morality. but what im saying is that america is a sovereign nation, and its laws, for better or worse, have to be respected. think back to the apostate issue: we as Muslims were crying foul that the laws of a sovereign nation (afghanistan) were not being respected since the wishes of the world were contrary to its laws. so if we’re championing the validity of one sovereign nation’s laws and not another nation’s, then aren’t we being inconsistent in our usul (principles)? as far as the laws being applicable or even just, that’s another issue from morality. this i agree with you (and sheesh people, im agreeing with you guys on a lot of details which no one seems to be recognizing) that the laws of immigration totally suck. they should be changed, but that requires rectification within the system. this doesnt mean we break the system’s laws first, and THEN justify it.
    2. this is one point that after reading your comment and also from some others that ive discussed this issue on the side, that i can see where you’re coming from. however, i do wonder that if amnesty is given, will this just open up the floodgates even more. amnesty has been given many times in the past to illegal immigrants, and this has only intensified the flow of illegals into our borders. if we give amnesty to 12-20 million in 2006, then how many more will we have to give amnesty to in 2026? sometimes you have to be firm in a course of action to prevent further complications down the line. perhaps sending millions of illegals back will send a clear message to the rest of the world that illegally jumping the border is something that we are firmly against. yes, it is impractical and nearly impossible to send all 12-20 million back, but perhaps if a significant number were sent back (say a million), the message would be sent.
    3. point well taken here. economy sucks… but does that mean the law can be broken in order of the sake of the greater good. islamically, yes; in america, at least theoretically, no. again, i cannot go and kill a murderer who was found not-guilty, etc. so what should be done: the law should be changed. but until then, the present law that we have should be enforced. this is similar to the situation we had with illegal music downloading: everyone was doing it, it was impossible to catch everyone. so what happened was that the law was amended, and hence you have things like itunes that basically legalized it for the future. however, those who were caught guilty of illegal downloads were prosecuted. not everyone,but some, enough to send the message to people that illegal downloads were something that the government was strongly against. perhaps a similar message should be sent about this issue. anyway, if apples ever became 99 cents/each, you know what would happen? we’d moan and gripe, yet we’d pay it anyway… look at the recent gas hikes, we’re moaning and whining, but we still buy gas. such dire circumstance in fact are necessities that give birth to inventions and novel methods. meaning that if apples ever became 99 cents each, im sure there’ll be someone somewhere who will figure out how to grow them for cheaper. hence, with the gas prices, for example, we have a new infusion of people who are looking into and researching the concept of alternative energy. sometimes things have to get worse in order to get better.
    4. yes, immigrants are the backbone of this nation and we need immigrants… all im saying is that we need LEGAL immigrants. as far as the europeans annihilating the native americans… that was wrong too, but since that was hundreds of years ago, unfortunately we cannot redress that. we can, however, redress and at least control this issue towards a beneficial end (ie, the opening up of our borders to LEGAL immigrants from ALL OVER the world).
    5. yes, i agree that the government proposal is just as ridiculous (if not worse) than the problem of illegal immigrants. and if that stupid law would ever get passed, then i don’t know what i would do. id have to seriously decide if obeying the law and still continuing to benefit my family, my legal patients, and community are more important than breaking the law and risking my career to help a few. i hope that’s a decision i’ll never have to make. but in the time being, as long as it’s not illegal now, i will gladly go out of my way to treat an illegal patient, even if that means its 100% out of my own pocket. and as for learning a new language, of course not, its not a bad thing, i myself speak several languages, spanish being one of them. however, i dont think that learning a specific foreign language should ever become a NECESSITY for people to simply get by and live their lives, just like learning arithmetic and grammar are. this is a possibility for the near future if the flow of illegal immigrants from one country/region alone is not controlled.
    6. as for your second comment, about “changing the system”. i am being consistent with my principles since i said that if things are so bad for people in other countries, they have two options: 1. change their systems and governments and 2. LEGALLY migrate here. illegally migrating here, i believe, is not a viable option. our parents came here through option #2, and hence they nor we have no need to apologize since they didn’t break any laws. now, regardless of who committed the illegal border crossing, it’s still a crime, whether it be a phd or a street sweeper. as far as things being bad there, dude, things are bad everywhere. look at what’s going on in darfur. you’re telling me that those people, if not given the chance, would not come here to escape famine and civil war and do janitor duties? i think they would. since things are bad EVERYWHERE, we should open up the borders to proportionate numbers of legal immigrants from everywhere. let’s have 100k from central/south america, 100k from eastern europe, 100k from africa, etc… let’s truly make america diverse.
    servantofallah: with all due respect, you have your own blog. if you want to post about establishing jihad or creating an islamic state, please use your own blog for that. please do not hijack my post for those purposes. if you want to discuss illegal immigration in the context of the american reality (in a discussion that is principally devoid of an islamic microscope, since this is a secular issue and we cannot conflate it into a religious one), then share your comments on the topic. if you want to stray off the topic, please use your own xanga for that. thanks a bunch.
    falooda: duly noted =). i see that you read all the comments, despite your claims that this site puts you to sleep =).

  51. vagrantrounin: i think ive responded to your comments during my responses to other people’s comments, but since you asked so nicely for a personal reply, here goes:
    1. i never made this an issue of morality. look, we’re talkin about american law here, one that we all agree is completely devoid of morality. but what im saying is that america is a sovereign nation, and its laws, for better or worse, have to be respected. think back to the apostate issue: we as Muslims were crying foul that the laws of a sovereign nation (afghanistan) were not being respected since the wishes of the world were contrary to its laws. so if we’re championing the validity of one sovereign nation’s laws and not another nation’s, then aren’t we being inconsistent in our usul (principles)? as far as the laws being applicable or even just, that’s another issue from morality. this i agree with you (and sheesh people, im agreeing with you guys on a lot of details which no one seems to be recognizing) that the laws of immigration totally suck. they should be changed, but that requires rectification within the system. this doesnt mean we break the system’s laws first, and THEN justify it.
    2. this is one point that after reading your comment and also from some others that ive discussed this issue on the side, that i can see where you’re coming from. however, i do wonder that if amnesty is given, will this just open up the floodgates even more. amnesty has been given many times in the past to illegal immigrants, and this has only intensified the flow of illegals into our borders. if we give amnesty to 12-20 million in 2006, then how many more will we have to give amnesty to in 2026? sometimes you have to be firm in a course of action to prevent further complications down the line. perhaps sending millions of illegals back will send a clear message to the rest of the world that illegally jumping the border is something that we are firmly against. yes, it is impractical and nearly impossible to send all 12-20 million back, but perhaps if a significant number were sent back (say a million), the message would be sent.
    3. point well taken here. economy sucks… but does that mean the law can be broken in order of the sake of the greater good. islamically, yes; in america, at least theoretically, no. again, i cannot go and kill a murderer who was found not-guilty, etc. so what should be done: the law should be changed. but until then, the present law that we have should be enforced. this is similar to the situation we had with illegal music downloading: everyone was doing it, it was impossible to catch everyone. so what happened was that the law was amended, and hence you have things like itunes that basically legalized it for the future. however, those who were caught guilty of illegal downloads were prosecuted. not everyone,but some, enough to send the message to people that illegal downloads were something that the government was strongly against. perhaps a similar message should be sent about this issue. anyway, if apples ever became 99 cents/each, you know what would happen? we’d moan and gripe, yet we’d pay it anyway… look at the recent gas hikes, we’re moaning and whining, but we still buy gas. such dire circumstance in fact are necessities that give birth to inventions and novel methods. meaning that if apples ever became 99 cents each, im sure there’ll be someone somewhere who will figure out how to grow them for cheaper. hence, with the gas prices, for example, we have a new infusion of people who are looking into and researching the concept of alternative energy. sometimes things have to get worse in order to get better.
    4. yes, immigrants are the backbone of this nation and we need immigrants… all im saying is that we need LEGAL immigrants. as far as the europeans annihilating the native americans… that was wrong too, but since that was hundreds of years ago, unfortunately we cannot redress that. we can, however, redress and at least control this issue towards a beneficial end (ie, the opening up of our borders to LEGAL immigrants from ALL OVER the world).
    5. yes, i agree that the government proposal is just as ridiculous (if not worse) than the problem of illegal immigrants. and if that stupid law would ever get passed, then i don’t know what i would do. id have to seriously decide if obeying the law and still continuing to benefit my family, my legal patients, and community are more important than breaking the law and risking my career to help a few. i hope that’s a decision i’ll never have to make. but in the time being, as long as it’s not illegal now, i will gladly go out of my way to treat an illegal patient, even if that means its 100% out of my own pocket. and as for learning a new language, of course not, its not a bad thing, i myself speak several languages, spanish being one of them. however, i dont think that learning a specific foreign language should ever become a NECESSITY for people to simply get by and live their lives, just like learning arithmetic and grammar are. this is a possibility for the near future if the flow of illegal immigrants from one country/region alone is not controlled.
    6. as for your second comment, about “changing the system”. i am being consistent with my principles since i said that if things are so bad for people in other countries, they have two options: 1. change their systems and governments and 2. LEGALLY migrate here. illegally migrating here, i believe, is not a viable option. our parents came here through option #2, and hence they nor we have no need to apologize since they didn’t break any laws. now, regardless of who committed the illegal border crossing, it’s still a crime, whether it be a phd or a street sweeper. as far as things being bad there, dude, things are bad everywhere. look at what’s going on in darfur. you’re telling me that those people, if not given the chance, would not come here to escape famine and civil war and do janitor duties? i think they would. since things are bad EVERYWHERE, we should open up the borders to proportionate numbers of legal immigrants from everywhere. let’s have 100k from central/south america, 100k from eastern europe, 100k from africa, etc… let’s truly make america diverse.
    servantofallah: with all due respect, you have your own blog. if you want to post about establishing jihad or creating an islamic state, please use your own blog for that. please do not hijack my post for those purposes. if you want to discuss illegal immigration in the context of the american reality (in a discussion that is principally devoid of an islamic microscope, since this is a secular issue and we cannot conflate it into a religious one), then share your comments on the topic. if you want to stray off the topic, please use your own xanga for that. thanks a bunch.
    falooda: duly noted =). i see that you read all the comments, despite your claims that this site puts you to sleep =).

  52. I didn’t read all the comments, so I don’t know if this was said or not. America was built on the idea of fighting for your rights. Yes fine the rally was there to fight for their rights…. However, America does allow for immigration, legally into this country, thats how most of of you guys got here, if not your mommy and daddys. Yea, a lot of those laws suck, thats what you should be fighting for, changing those laws, or this dumb bill being passed. Who in America is going to listen to a criminal? No matter what kind of criminal he is. The bill being passed is unfair. But the fact that they are trying to control ILLEGAL populations, I don’t see how that is unfair. No one should get a free ticket to anything when others who are in the same condition are still suffering. My parents didn’t come here freely, it wouldn’t be fair to be people like them, no matter what race, for people to come here illegally and use the benefits of this society, while others wait years to get here is also unfair. 
    They also might do a lot of the dirty work of society, but if you guys haven’t realized the american economy is going to the pits also, I’m sure there are legal residences who would be willing do the same jobs as those people. People get desperate when they have no jobs…
    Sorry if I’m not to clear….. 

  53. Anonymous permalink

    A lot of these comments were not written by you. Hence, they did not put me to sleep 🙂

  54. “To give them citizenship or three-year work visas (and how many of them will even go back after three years?) is irresponsible and threatens the very future of this country.”
    So you are a pro-america advocate?  I will humbly resign from your blog if you just cut yourself out from “spokesman for islam” and sign your name onto the list “spokesman for america.”  Because I was under the impression you were of the former but it will clear everything up if you just made it clear to all that you are of the latter.  So you are for the “preservation” of the United States government and regime?  So, if everyone here becomes muslim, you would want us to stick to the constitution right?  If yes, I humbly resign.  If not, qualify your statements, because quite frankly I am lost as to the real point of this pro-kufr diatribe.  Don’t allow yourself to be a spokesman for a kufr regime, because although it may seem benign enough in the scheme of things, it may be detrimental in the end.
    salaamalaikumwarahmatullahiwabarakatu.

  55. servantofallah: dude, just drop it, the more and more i read your stuff, i just bang my head against the wall since it seems that youre just mad at the fact that Muslims have no power and the only way to restore the grandeur of the Muslim nation and have earthly glory (last time i checked, i thought we were working for otherworldly glory) is to have this total pro-islamic state, anti-america/world attitude. when you start your islamic state, lemme know, ill join you.nonetheless, as much as every cell in my body screams that replying to you is futile, since it’s my blog, im forced to reply1. pro-america advocate? if i’m a pro-america advocate by saying that the laws of the nation that one lives in should be followed, in that sense of the word, yes. if you’re extending the word to think that i cheerlead and applaud every decision that america makes, in terms of foreign policy, economic policy, environmental issues, etc… then you havent read my blog at all. but hey, if thinking that makes you feel good to think that, then sure, go for it.2. never said i was a spokesman for islam, not sure where you got that from. ive never spoke from an expert opinion on this post or any other post. everything has been my personal thoughts on various issues, for better or worse. to use this title in quotes implies that i’ve given it to myself or assume myself to be as such, which is a grave assumption on your part. 3. “So, if everyone here becomes muslim, you would want us to stick to the constitution right?”… im almost tempted to say yes just to get you to resign. but no, i never said that. for you to answer a question that you asked me (or suggest that i would answer that) again suggests to me that none of this has been thought through thoroughly (how’s that for a tongue twister). but to answer the question, of course not. i never said that and im disappointed to see that not only would you think that about me, but you would put those words into my mouth by answering your question. 4. im lost as to the real point of your Hizbul-tahreeri pro-islamic state debate, especially in the context of this particular post, which had to deal with illegal immigrants. it’s like me asking what 2+2 is and you’ve told us all that the sky is blue. just because something may be true in one discussion/subject, doesnt necessarily confer it validity in the field of another one. perhaps you should post something on your own blog on why this (establishing the fantasy islamic state) is a pressing need for the muslims, when/where/why/how it should be done. im done responding to your comments and accusations. we clearly disagree, so let’s just leave it at that.wa `alaykum as salaam.

  56. subhanAllah.
    anyways, istikhara is always good.  especially when you are in a pseudo debate and you think you are sure you are right.  I may have to do that.
    take care bro.

  57. …and you wont because you are sure you are right.  lol.

  58. Anonymous permalink

    I dunno man, who the hell are these bastards to call anyone illegal immigrants. It’s the freakin joke of the century. They’re the ones who stole the land. Their greedy gold diggin asses are the real immigrants who invaded this land and dispalced its people. Not only that, but they brough thousands of africans out here against their will and believe you me every other race that followed is a slave one way or the other. It’s no secret that this country runs on slave labor, ahem…I mean immigrant labor. The only reason they’re bitchin is cuz their lazy ass public can’t hold down a job, and these people can. And that creates competition for the average american. God forbid they should learn to work hard again. Go ahead and deport the 11 million illegals, and watch america take a bit hit economically. Infact it would be a great twist of fate if the people who invaded this land became the ones who got deported. I wonder if Israel would return the favor and take all the americans in. The great American Exodus!

  59. MAN, a lot of comments KR  Too bad I don’t think people read them (or your posts), and just reply. 
    After all this, I do pray you change your opinion on this matter.  We have a long way to go bro, as both a religion and a community in this country – satisfaction is not close.  Just recently the Judge in the Sami Al Arian trial came down so harshly upon Dr. Al Arian, even though he had not been found guilty for any of the crimes he was charged against.  What made it so disheartening, especially for individuals that tried so hard to bring the trial to the communities eyes (myself included), was that even after the Prosecution – those that argued against the man – went ahead and asked the Judge to allow for a short sentencing, the Judge went ahead and slapped the longest sentence possible on Dr. Al Arian!  It hurts so much, and I can only imagine the pain and frustration that the Al Arian family is going thorugh right now (please, keep them in your sincerest of dua’). 
    WHY exactly do I bring this up?  I don’t quite know.  When I read your post at the beginning of the discussion, I was really disheartened that a Muslim would have this opinion on the matter – especially one such as yourself who I know and respect.  It scared me to think that we might be ‘content’ with what a conservative government can provide.  I know you’re not preaching pro-America or anything, but I do think the critical eye of yours may have missed some issues on this topic.  I could say more, but it seems the discussion is over.  InshaAllah people benefitted.

  60. Assalamualaikum…
    i see that you wrote  a post within your comments…
    i havent read this yet, but props nonetheless….since i am a bit behind on kr-xanga-reading…due to AP exams….
    Allah Hafiz
    Wasalaam

  61. Kam,
    I agree with you, giving thes people citizenship is rewarding criminal behavior. Whereas my parents, your parents, and previous immigrants waited in line and did things in a legal manner, these guys are just sneaking in here and demanding rights. It’s a crock of garbage.

  62. Anonymous permalink

    Assalam Alaikum,The “Imams of Old”, from what I have heard, have a consensus that following the laws of the land you live in should not, in any way or shape or form, contradict the laws of Allah. Therefore, traffic laws are not contradicting the laws of Allah in any way, so go ahead and follow them. But the laws in this Country that are secular and contradict Shari’ah are the laws we are forced to stand up against. Why? Simply because it’s not Shari’ah. Hence, the ayaat of Surah al Mai’dah that Ayub was quoting. Take Care,Samir

  63. Anonymous permalink

    Assalam Alaikum,I would like to comment on a few things regarding your entry. I will just quote you and then comment. You wrote, “The immigration laws of the United States, for better or worse, are still laws of a sovereign nation; they have to be respected and upheld, no matter how unjust or ridiculous one might think them to be.”Comment: There are two major perspectives on any issue regarding America: The American perspective and the un-American perspective. I will explain these two in my last comment. So just keep these two terms in the back of your mind as I comment. If we just take out the issue of immigration in this sentence of yours and make it general, would you still agree to what you are writing or would you take it back? If you don’t see what I am seeing, you are basically stating that the laws of America have to be respected, even if they are unjust, oppressive, ridiculous etc. simply because, “this is a sovereign nation”. If you disagree to this statement, then it’s all good. If not, then let me be blatant here.If you believe Allah is God and His Laws are Sovereign and above all man-made laws, and that Prophet Muhammad (s) was the absolute best role model and his understanding of this Deen is the best of understanding amongst any man in history, then you are forced to reject:a. America as a “Sovereign nation”b. Any law in the world that contradicts Shari’ah On a side note, don’t bring up the famine during ‘Umar’s (ra) time because we are only going to digress. Stick to the general. The rulings during ‘Umar’s famine is not general but only an exception. Here, we are talking about general and not exception. Continuing on my blatancy, Allah says, “whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.” (2:256) Can anyone say that the laws in this Country, overall, are definitely the laws of Allah (i.e., Shari’ah)? Absolutely not. What is the opposite of Allah? Shaytan. Here in this ayah, Allah uses the word “Taghoot” which has a wide variety of meanings. One of which are those governments that don’t rule by Islam. Meaning, if you support this government, in any way of shape or form, you are inadvertently (hopefully not advertently) supporting Shaytan. Let’s take a step back in Islamic history. Analyze the following questions in your mind:a. Did Prophet Muhammad (s), after becoming a Prophet, support the Qurayshi “regime” in any form or fashion?b. Did Prophet Muhammad (s) accept the sovereignty of Quraysh’s law or did he want to change their laws?c. Did Prophet Muhammad (s) eventually change the laws of Quraysh into the laws of Allah? Meaning, did Mecca change into an Islamic State? All three of these questions can be answered in just the 30th juz if you read with a careful eye, perhaps with a Qur’anic exegesis handy. Also in your comment, I see patriotism. If the immigration laws screw up this Country and destroy this land internally, then that’s the anger of Allah upon this decadent disbelieving nation lead by kuffar who are criminals to mankind. Blatantly speaking, if you get upset about this Country getting corrupted, then you are, (whether you say it with your tongue or not), upset with Shaytan loosing (here, it will be Taghooti regime). Now you might argue, “But this is the best nation in the world and I’d rather be in America than back home in India.” Well, if you want to look at it from the dunya perspective, I would want to live in America too. But I don’t have to tell you, Br. Kamran, to choose between looking at this life from the perspective of Dunya or Akhira. You should already know that. I am not saying go and pack your bags to leave to India and integrate into their society. Not at all. Rather, I am saying you are obliged, from the Qur’an and Sunnah, to stand up for the haqq (truth) and reject baatil (falsehood) wherever you may be. Islam is Haqq and everything else is baatil, no matter how close it may be to Islamic law. If you have rejected everything I have said so far, then please, go ahead and contemplate your position on these ayaat:- 61:9, 5:44, 5:45, 5:47, 42:13, 48:29, 2:190, 9:29 You wrote, “But the fact remains that you cannot break a law in order to do good.” Comment: I support what Br. Ayub said. Even though it may seem farfetched to you or out of line with the subject at hand, he was actually attacking your foundation. Maybe that’s why he said it’s like building a building on air. The words in this sentence of yours are the central focus of your writing and reveal your views on many issues, unless if you take back these words. If you agree that the laws of Allah are sovereign, then you would have to take back that statement. Let’s give a slightly mind baffling example. Let’s say there’s a small Muslim Village in America that is far away from society [on purpose] and they all live next to each other and the masjid is walking distance. Amongst the things they do as a community, they implement the hudood in their Muslim Village. All those Muslims in that community want the hudood. If a Muslim commits zina, he will be punished according to the hudood. They are doing this because they love Allah and His Messenger and are not about talk but action. However, according to American law, that is breaking the law. In fact, if you implement the hudood in any part of America, you are breaking the American law. So what those Muslims are doing in the Muslim Village, is it considered un-Islamic or Islamic? Is it haram or halal? Is it American or un-American? Is it breaking American law or not? If you look at it from the secular perspective of America, then you are looking at it from Shaytan’s eyes. Shaytan absolutely hates to see the laws of Allah implemented. He hates it. He hates Islam, Iman and anything that brings a person closer to Allah. He hates it. I don’t have to preach to you the children stories of how Shaytan is out to get you and stop you from becoming a true slave of Allah. You already know this, perhaps from bedtime stories. So then it boils down to a fiqhi issue. Is it haram or halal? Well, if you can find any proof that it is haram to implement hudood in the kuffar’s country even though the Muslims in that local vicinity want the Shari’ah, then by all means, it’s haram. But if you cannot find proof that it is haram, then don’t turn your face away from it. You wrote, “If things are so bad there, why don’t they work to change the system there?” Comment: You said it yourself. Do the same here. You wrote, “In short, I think my views on this are quite clear, but just to reiterate: I think all illegals should be sent back to their countries. I don’t care if they’re Mexican, Arab, Korean; breaking a law is a crime no matter your origin. To give them citizenship or three-year work visas (and how many of them will even go back after three years?) is irresponsible and threatens the very future of this country.Finally, I think it’s ridiculous that Chicago Muslim leaders went to support this and demanded that we too support it. The Chicago Muslim community has a smorgasbord of other issues that need to be resolved; showing solidarity with a rally that seeks to legitimize the residency of criminals, in my view, should not be a primary objective for us.”Comment: Earlier, I was talking about the two major perspectives in regards to issues in America: The American view and the un-American view. Throughout my comments, I tried to explain that the American view, in most cases, is useless since it will be detrimental to your Akhira. The Prophet (s) never looked at things from the “Qurayshi view”. He was concerned with what Allah had given him and so he made Allah’s outlook superior to that of any other outlook. The Prophet (s) never spoke of integration into kufr society. Never. And he did that for a reason. Why? Because Muslims are to be different. Study the ahadith and topics on “Ghuaraba”, “Wahn”, “’Izza”, and “Jihad”. If you disagree, and say we must be the same, then my advice is for you to muse over just this one ayah (amongst many in regards to this):You shall not find a people who believe in Allah and the last day befriending those who act in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their (own) fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kinsfolk; these are they into whose hearts He has written faith in their hearts, and whom He has strengthened with an inspiration from Him: and He will cause them to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein; Allah is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him these are Allah’s party: now surely the party of Allah are the successful ones! (58:22)Take Care,Samir

  64. inshallahshahid: how this has anything to do with immigration, boggles my mind. i used to think you weren’t HT in your thinking, but these comments indicate otherwise. as a personal rule, i avoid debating anything with HTs, i prefer to let them think they’re right and im wrong. i will say this though: if this country is so unjust, satanic, and immoral, why are you still here? why do you pay taxes to a government that uses those same dollars to fund israel, kill Muslims across the world, and spend it on dozens of other unjust and harmful causes to humanity. shouldnt you find an islamic state to migrate to wherein you’re not part of this problem? when you and ayub find this mythical islamic state, let me know, ill be the first to join you.anyway, since your comments have nothing to do with the issue of immigration and instead have to do larger themes such as the validity of the american state, whether or not its incumbent for Muslims to follow the law, etc., i will refrain from discussing it here. i have replies to each and everyone of your points (ive had one too many debates with HTs in my day, ya Allah) and experience has told me that such debates are not to be held online. these things are not easily discussed in comments but need to be discussed in person; there’s just way too much misunderstanding that goes on between the two sides (plus the spectators) and there’s too many issues at hand. inshallah if we ever meet in real life, ill be more than happy to discuss this with you.i love you for the sake of Allah.was salaam `alaykum.

  65. Anonymous permalink

    Salam, I don’t pay tax dollars. And I am doing something about not being here. What do I want to do? I can only explain in person, as you said, it is the safest way.If what you said is what you believe (i.e., “why do you pay taxes to a government that uses those same dollars to fund israel, kill Muslims across the world, and spend it on dozens of other unjust and harmful causes to humanity.”), then our discussion is over. Arguments are over. Now let’s work out a way to get to Khilafah (and fulfilling the fard al ‘ayn’s of today) instead of talking about integration and feeling bad for this decadent nation. If you want integration, and you believe that this govt. is unjust and killing people, then your life’s direction is a contradiction and it shows that you don’t want to live a hard life because you are scared of the consequences. A simple example of this contradiction would be the following: let’s say you lived in a small village in a remote section in Pakistan. This tiny village of 300 people is widespread with murder, adultery, rape, alcohol, drug abuse, suicide, and oppression of many sorts. You as individual would agree that all of this is bad and something must be done about it. But what is your decisive action? It is, “I will join the boat with those who are doing something. Otherwise, I am going to stay here and enjoy the freedoms in my village and I will voice my opinion once in a while.” Don’t be only truthful to others, but also, most importantly, be truthful to yourself. And that, my dear brother, is a very, very hard thing to do.Living in this day of age requires us to live by the Islamic Eschatological commands. Our Eschatology, in this age, is no longer a Science but a reality which we must live and admit to. The guidance for this age lies in many ahadith. We must look towards that which will keep us the safest from the fitan. Abu Hurairah narrated: The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam) said: “The trials and tribulations are on their way. Trials like pieces of a dark night. The safest from them would be a man living on the peaks of mountains, living off his flock of sheep, or a man mounting his horse living off his sword.” (Al Hakim)Take Care,Samir

  66. ^you dont pay tax dollars? wow, no income tax, state tax, sales tax, nothing? subhanallah, tell me how you do that bro, i can save a lot of money too.

  67. Anonymous permalink

    I live with my parents. Other than that, the other taxes are obviously something I pay for. But the point is, I’m doing something about it because I know it’s wrong. Samir

  68. I think Moeed’s post said it best, although I really don’t think it is fair that people who entered illegally want the ability to become citizens. but to give them a status any less than that is not enough of an incentive to make themselves known. the process needs to be sped up and implemented better (i.e. working or visiting visas are just that) and border security should be increased. as for those already here, we cannot physically deport every illegal person (it’s really not feasible) and to continue to ignore them hurts both them and us (for a variety of reasons already mentioned). Still Moeed’s other comment about how everything is Allah’s creation stands, who are we to create artificial borders? But like he said, that’s an entirely different topic.the purpose of this comment is to point out something that i disagreed with in your post. you said, “But the fact remains that you cannot break a law in order to do good.” There are instances when it is necessary to break a law in order to do good. Rosa Parks broke the law .. her reasons may have in part been selfish (she was tired? she liked the view from the front of the bus?) but what she did galvanized the people to stand up for themselves. Martin Luther King’s civil disobedience is another example. they were protesting laws that were morally wrong.There can be moral laws that are above laws created by man because man is imperfect. Sometimes it is not possible to work through or with the system. The scenario Kohlberg presents (the man with the wife who has cancer and the pharmacist, you can google it) is an example of this. of course your opinion may be that the man should go to jail, but there are many people who would argue that it is the pharmacist who was morally wrong and so the man may have broken laws set down by the govt. or people but the pharmacist was wrong to do what he did (so this is Moeed’s too.. stealing because one his hungry).

  69. oh to clarify: in THIS instance (immigration) .. breaking the law doesn’t do any good. the immigration laws are not morally wrong, in my opinion. a country should have the right to limit how many people enter and/or stay assuming it is done with no bias.

  70. Anonymous permalink

    SalaamFair enough. Is that prince of persia in your pic?Fi aman Allah

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